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In 1 Timothy 4:1 it says “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.” This is what is known as “the great apostasy.” Apostasy is just a fancy word for falling away from the faith. Within the last few weeks, we’ve had quite a few outspoken Christian leaders do exactly this: they have announced to the world that they can no longer call themselves a Christian. (I’m waiting for the third. These things happen in threes, right?)
I (Hillary F) haven’t just noticed this with public figures. I’ve seen it happen to friends and friends of friends, and most specifically, I’ve seen it happen with one partner in a Christian marriage. I’ve had not one, not two, but three different women contact Mama Bear in this past month asking for advice for how to submit to God in a marriage where their once on fire (often professional ministry) husband has since walked away from the faith. These ladies are heartbroken as they now feel that they have to raise their children in the faith all on their own. Christianity is no longer the dominant force it once was in the west, and loyalties are waning now that it is not a culturally attractive title to hold. Loyalty to Christ is starting to wane now that 'Christian' is no longer an attractive title to hold in our culture. #apologetics Click To Tweet
It seems that everyone has a story nowadays. But again, this should not come as a surprise. In the second letter to Timothy, Paul says “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 Timothy 4:3) We are only starting to see the beginning of the great falling away. (or the great “deconstruction” as Joshua Harris might say…) The cultural milieu is militantly against the Christian message and we are seeing the devastation caused by a generation who thought that Christian faith would reinforce itself. (Hint: it won’t.) Christianity is no longer reinforcing itself in our culture. #apologetics Click To Tweet
Join Amy and Hillary as they discuss the Hillsong worship leader’s original statements and the greater implications of the church’s response.
People and resources mentioned:
Joshua Harris’s statement of renouncing his faith
Hillsong Worship leader (Marty Sampson’s statement)
Time for some real talk. I’m genuinely losing my faith, and it doesn’t bother me. Like, what bothers me now is nothing. I am so happy now, so at peace with the world. It’s crazy.
This is a soapbox moment so here I go … How many preachers fall? Many. No one talks about it. How many miracles happen. Not many. No one talks about it. Why is the Bible full of contradictions? No one talks about it. How can God be love yet send four billion people to a place, all ‘coz they don’t believe? No one talks about it. Christians can be the most judgmental people on the planet—they can also be some of the most beautiful and loving people. But it’s not for me.
I am not in any more. I want genuine truth. Not the “I just believe it” kind of truth. Science keeps piercing the truth of every religion. Lots of things help people change their lives, not just one version of God. Got so much more to say, but for me, I keeping it real. Unfollow if you want, I’ve never been about living my life for others.
All I know is what’s true to me right now, and Christianity just seems to me like another religion at this point. I could go on, but I won’t. Love and forgive absolutely. Be kind absolutely. Be generous and do good to others absolutely. Some things are good no matter what you believe. Let the rain fall, the sun will come up tomorrow.
John Cooper from Skillet – see response here.
Michael Brown response.
“Hillsong songwriter Marty Sampson says He’s Losing His Faith” https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/hillsong-songwriter-marty-sampson-says-hes-losing-his-christian-faith/
Marty’s response to John Cooper https://www.christianpost.com/news/marty-sampson-responds-skillets-john-cooper-christian-influencers-leaving-the-faith.html
Quotable quotes:
- “There is a difference between a wounded sheep and a wolf.” Hillary Morgan Ferrer
- “Why be so eager to lead people when you obviously don’t know where you’re headed?”
- John Cooper regarding the influence church leaders have even when they are walking away from the faith.
- “The problem is that judgment has been redefined to include any form of accountability.” Amy Davison The problem is that judgment has been redefined to include any form of accountability. #apologetics Click To Tweet
Hillary Morgan Ferrer is the founder of Mama Bear Apologetics. She is the chief author and editor of Mama Bear Apologetics: Empowering Your Kids to Challenge Cultural Lies and Mama Bear Apologetics Guide to Sexuality: Empowering Your Kids to Understand and Live Out God’s Design. Hillary has her masters in Biology and has been married to her husband, Dr. John D. Ferrer, for 15 years. Don’t let her cook for you. She’ll burn your house straight to the ground.
I was appalled that you agreed that Scripture has mistakes…I’d like you to tell me those.
When did I say that? I think there might be a misunderstanding.
Are you referring to the quote that Amy read from the man who walked away from the faith? That was us quoting him, not us making a statement.
Great conversation! I can’t wait to hear more about the very real difference between wounded sheep and preying wolves. That’s a significant problem in our churches today, in both leadership and within the general congregation. One point you hit on is something I was just grappling with yesterday–the seemingly joyous way Marty Sampson expressed his renouncement of faith and the emphasis he put on being “at peace with the world.” I actually heard quite a bit of similarity with Joshua Harris’ statement/renouncement of faith. I’m not sure if his came from a place of wrestling or mere experience and wisdom with how to position himself in a way that might avoid certain backlash. What I found most interesting in Harris’ statement is when he referenced Martin Luther who said Christianity is living a life of repentance. He then went on to say how he’s been living in great repentance for many years — about the teachings of his books, women in ministry, self-righteousness, and finally in regards to the LBGTQ community. As I read his statement it was tragically clear that he has little to no understanding of true repentance — which is not about seeking forgiveness and reconciliation with the world, but with God–and coming into agreement with His word and His will, not the opinions and desires of the world. His entire focus, and that of Marty Sampson, is on the world and not God. It’s quite tragic and I’m praying they will hear God’s voice and turn to Him in all truth. Great podcast!
Those are excellent points. I have some theories about Joshua Harris, but they are just theories. I can’t know his heart for sure. His announcement seemed more like someone who had been so beat up that they just gave in. I didn’t get that vibe with the Hillsong guy. He seemed at peace and excited. Joshua Harris sounded more defeated.
I at least VERY MUCH appreciated (though tragic beyond words) that Joshua Harris said by all reasoning and measure he’s not a Christian. Leaders who say they are Christian or who keep one foot in and one foot out while they lead others astray are definitely wolves. I agree that Joshua Harris sounds more like a defeated man who is searching — and the other sad circumstances surrounding his renouncement are indications of that, too.
I like (well, have a love-hate relationship with) the notion of the “wounded sheep,” but it gets me thinking about how to tell them from wolves. In the end I think we have to assume departing insiders are “wounded sheep” until proven otherwise. Even “Hillsong Guy” sounds like he could, conceivably, be more wounded sheep than wolf. Could Ehrman have been kept in the fold if someone had treated his wounds? Maybe not, but if we treat them like wolves, we’ll just run them straight to the arms of the devil.